Lisbon Looming

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  • #2636
    Starbright
    Member

    Not an expert on this, but reading as much as I can. I think we should at least educate ourselves rather than be bullied and coerced by politicians.

    I do think it’s an ‘eyes closed and jump’ moment. We are trusting that the EU has our best interests at heart. Whilst I like the idea of the EU, and it has definately helped us, I am a bit weary of this one. Other countries seem reluctanct too.

    #62030
    Sherbert
    Member

    God lads i havent a clue what this is all about at all! Will have to get the finger out and educate myself!!!!!!!!!! 🙄

    #62041
    Taylor5
    Member

    I have two booklets waiting to be read, but other then that I dont have a clue. Will try and have a read and see what my views are after that. I know dh is voting NO and we normally have very different views on political issues

    #62042
    yummymummy
    Member

    Have no idea what this is all about!! anyone want to give me a quick overhall!!!
    have never voted for anythingin my life, maybe i should start 😳

    #62056
    noeleenw
    Member

    well i dont seem to know anyone who knows what its all about , i am a farmer so i am voting no as peter mandelson is trying to put us out of business , but dont really have any idea of it 🙄

    #62069
    MaryK
    Member

    I am no expert, but I think that if we ratify it then it will encourage other countries to follow our example. I think it is a good opportunity to show we are a progressive country and not reactionary.

    I heard a terrible story on Matt Cooper, Today FM. Hospitals in Wexford I think and other locations are holding the vote to ransom because they are not getting what they want on other issues. To me that is an awful way to proceed. I mean, vote people out of office for your issues, but don’t be obstructive and destructive. When questioned the individual had no idea about what the Treaty was even about! It beggers belief 👿

    I think that it feels painful now and seems like we are giving away our sovereign rights, but the big picture needs to be looked at.

    The farmers are rightfully worried about subsides, but that will change with or without Lisbon.

    I will vote an emphatic YES

    #62101
    Taylor5
    Member

    MaryK isnt is very sad that in a wealthy country like Ireland in the year 2008 that people feel that their backs are sooo far up against the wall in trying to protect a health service that they have reduced themselves to blackmail………… shame on harney.

    Sorry What was the Mastrict treaty all about, will we have new treaties every few years? I know the union my dh is in arent backing it, so he is thinking of voting NO…. I have 2 weeks to read up on it.

    #62126
    Biggins
    Member

    Having being one of the few that actually has read it, I can say hand on heart that Ireland as much fas as I can see, will be worse off.

    We lose 67 areas of control. Thats tax, medical controls, army, social welfare, etc… 67 areas I kid you not.

    – If nothing else – watch the videos at unitedpeople.ie and see the video youtube clips.
    Many, many European ministers have spoken out against the draconian measures that will becoming into place if this is passed.

    France REFUSES to go to the public cos’ the head man knows it will be rejected so they are bypassing the public.
    England is doing the same.
    The orders wentout from the EEC HQ that all hot-topic plans are to be shelved till after the Irish referendum! So not to rock the boat till after the vote.
    Once this treaty passes, it self amending thereafter for ever more. In other words, any new laws – anything – can be inserted and forced upon the Irish public by our new direct government in Brussles.
    We will NEVER get to vote on this or similar again.

    My God, what did the founding state fathers (and mothers) die for from 1916 onwards! Never mind those that went before…
    We sign up for this and we have just gone from ridding ourselves from British imperialism to handing us and our state over to a European imperialism.

    …and thats only the tip of the iceberg as to why I am voting "NO".

    Voting "No" means that the same European laws and systems will still carry on as before. Granted they are not the best but like everything else, work on those laws are continuing.
    Some of the "Yes" crowd will claim or try to scare others into thinking that this will taint us all as non-progressive. Thats low down dirty tactics and tarnishing and has been shown to be so.

    Put it this way – if this was a trial, the defending lawyer would state "if in doubt, chuck it out!"

    Even if your unsure about something, don’t vote for it – reasonable doubt is enough not to let the dog at the door in – for fear it might bite you at some stage later. Keep the door closed until you are very sure about opening it.
    Many states in Europe are praying we reject this re-worded treaty.
    Think of Ireland – not Europe and its many, many unknown faceless MP’s.
    I want to say to my kids some day that I at least voted as well, for Ireland to be able to still govern itself fully. Not be told what to do by an office bureaucrat somewhere in Europe.

    #62169
    munchin
    Participant

    well sadi biggins -can i just add that i personally think that there is so much confusion out there about this people would be mad to vote yes but i think alot of people that are cnofused or don’t understand might just simply not vote and then all the people who are voting yes will get it passed so please please DO NOT WASTE YOUR VOTE

    #62179
    Biggins
    Member

    Its hard enough to get to talk to an irish TD – can you imagine when their power is weaken by this treaty and we then have to chase our European TD’s for every day issues?

    It will be a 10 times bigger nightmare.

    #62237
    MaryK
    Member

    We have to ask ourselves (the little people) why is there over 80% cross-party political support for the YES vote. And why is there total support from IBEC (Irish Business and Employers Confederation).

    What do they know? Do we really think these politicians and business leaders are crazy? Or are they just being rational in a changing and dynamic Europe? And realizing that for us to trade efficiently we must be a part of the party, not APART from party. If Ireland is to thrive and lead in Europe with regards to prolonged economic success, then we have to take off our new and ill-founded conspiratorial jingoistic shackles. Then we can show the rest of Europe what we are about!

    Yes, we may compromise some things for the YES vote. It does mean more central power to the EU, but we are not going to have to change flags, or national anthems, or stop shaving under our armpits. To send a no vote will mean more years of uncertainty and political wrangling, whilst opportunity passes us by. We have to get moving on this. Europe is a democratic and progressive bloc that with all good intentions wishes to achieve parity for all its members. We are not voting in totalitarianism here!

    This scaremongering and quasi-jingoistic rhetoric on here and elsewhere is unhelpful to Ireland’s place in this historic climate. We leap-frogged the UK to become the most prominent beneficiaries of theEU’s economic plan and the first chance we get to lead, we have the conspiracy xenophobes out in force flicking the ‘tricolor V’s’ at them…disgraceful behaviour IMO

    #62241
    Biggins
    Member

    Well for a start I don’t personally like the bully tactics that the "Yes" vote camp is using.
    Quote from todays Irish Independent paper and site: "IRELAND and Europe will "pay a price" if there is a ‘No’ vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso warned voters last night."

    90+ further comments by Independent readers are with me. If any one bothers to read the last 5 sections of the treaty, it spells out just how we are going to hand over our power from the Dail, to an office somewhere in Europe, and good look trying to find that and get in contact with it when you have a problem!

    Quote: “There is no longer a question of saying there are certain things that the union can’t touch. Actually the union can touch everything.” Gisela Stuart, the British Labour MP who helped draft the EU Constitution, commenting on the Lisbon Treaty, January 18th, 2008.

    The Lisbon Treaty would put more law-making into the hands of EU institutions in more policy areas. The European Commission is the only EU body with the power to draft laws. It is not elected by the people and there is no direct link between us and them. The renamed constitution would do nothing to change this.

    The voting balance in the EU would change to favour countries with larger populations. It would greatly reduce the areas where governments could veto policy proposals. In future the heads of state would be allowed to agree to change EU policies and remove vetoes without referendum.

    The EU would have a “legal personality”, a president and a foreign minister. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) would be the new Supreme Court for all, whose rulings give priority to business interests over social rights.

    The Lisbon Treaty would give the EU new competence (law-making power), or significantly extend existing competence, in at least 32 new areas. And it would broaden current law-making power in 40 other areas.

    For example, the EU could decide the way public services are financed (Art 14 TFEU). The new treaty specifies that there should be an energy market, which entails continued privatisation of energy systems (Art 176a TFEU). This treaty would give the EU trade commissioner much more leverage to make international trade agreements leading to privatisation of health, education, social and cultural and audiovisual services (Art 188c TFEU).

    The treaty would also give the EU the power to set economic guidelines for member states that use the euro (Art 114 TFEU), and to decide a common position at international discussions with the International Monetary Fund or the World Trade Organisation (Art 115 TFEU). Member states would have to increase military spending and allow the EU to use military and civilian facilities for military purposes (Art 27.3 and 27.7 TFEU).

    End of veto

    This treaty would increase the areas where majority voting rather than unanimous agreement in the Council of Ministers would decide policy. The system would change from unanimity to qualified majority voting in at least 18 existing areas of lawmaking, and from unanimity to qualified majority in 49 new or extended legal bases.

    This means that it would be much more difficult for member state governments to block proposals. Removing the power of veto would therefore reduce the incentive to find consensus. The treaty would allow the European Parliament to reject proposals from the commission in 19 of the policy areas currently decided by majority voting, and in many of the new areas of EU law-making. While this gives it more scrutiny over the commission, it is no compensation for the loss of a national veto in 67 other areas of voting in the council.

    Small countries like Ireland have little influence in the parliament, with 12 out of 750 MEPs. So the European Parliament could easily overrule a government acting in line with its electoral mandate. The parliament, for example, approved the EU water directive which is the reason for water charges in Irish schools. It also approved the postal directive, due to come fully into force in 2011, which may fragment the national postal service. The electricity directive, which has increased prices in Ireland, also got the parliament’s approval.
    All these are the first of more examples to come if this treaty passes and our government gets NO say to stop these orders from a body in Europe somewhere!

    These directives say there has to be a market in these services. It means the EU can offer access to Europe-wide public services to transnational corporations via the General Agreement on Trade in Services in the WTO. This would all but remove democratic control of essential services.

    Thanks but no thanks.
    – I’m voting "NO" still… if only for the future of my children and their voices to be allowed to still be heard.

    #62244
    MaryK
    Member

    Ah there is your problem, you read the Indo. 😀

    Thereis as much sensationalist advertising for the no vote too. Placards making it sound that we will be thrust into an Orwellian pit of despair if we would dare to vote YES.

    The conspiracy theorists love it. It’s the WTC ‘Building 7’ all over again. We humans are bored, so we agitate others to get our kicks. Tell me Biggins, and truthfully, do you believe in a lot of the urban legends and conspiracy theory’s that are knocking about?Bush blew up the WTC? Aliens anally probe rednecks? Prince Phillip killed Diana? Bertie and Tony are engaged? They are all akin to superstition! IMO!

    It’s just about putting some rationalism into our lives and stop seeing supposed patterns when they are not there.

    IBEC’s Director General, Turlough O Sullivan has just released a document in favour of the YES vote. Please see below 😀

    Lisbon Reform Treaty – What’s it all about

    The Treaty is about three things:

    • Creating more effective and efficient structures
    • Meeting the challenges that confront Europe
    • Protecting business and jobs

    Structures
    As the EU has grown from 6 to 27 member states it is necessary to modernise its structures. For many years the EU has been involved in internal disputes and confusion over who does what. The reforms proposed under the Lisbon Treaty will make the EU more efficient and effective in its decision making. The Treaty protects the interests of smaller states and introduces a more open and democratic mode of operation. The EU will be “fit for purpose”.

    Meeting Challenges
    The EU with its 485 million people is now the largest economic bloc in the world. The Union, acting on the global stage, has a responsibility to deal with economic, social and environmental issues. From an economic perspective the Lisbon Treaty will allow the EU to meet the challenges and maximise the opportunities of globalisation with the growing influence of major new economic powers such as India, China, Russia and Brazil. From a social perspective the Lisbon Treaty will allow the EU to provide increased humanitarian aid to developing countries along with tackling issues such as cross border crime including human trafficking. The Treaty will also allow the EU to play a greater role in environmental issues and lead the global approach to Climate Change.

    Protecting business and jobs
    The Lisbon Treaty has among its core objectives the creation of full employment and free competition. There are many provisions in the Treaty to support jobs and the economy.

    The Treaty gives a role to the EU for the first time in terms of energy security. It provides for cooperation between member states when it comes to difficulties in energy supply and also promotes the interconnection of energy networks.

    The Treaty commits to strengthening research in the Union through supporting R&D activities of the highest quality. This means that Irish researchers and industry will be supported as part of the European research community.

    The Treaty also contains specific proposals to improve transport infrastructure across member states. As an island economy which exports almost 90% of everything we produce, any measures that allow us to get our goods and services to market quicker and cheaper have to be welcomed.

    The Lisbon Treaty is about making Europe work better, smarter and harder.

    Ireland has done extraordinarily well from its EU membership. It has facilitated strong foreign investment and has provided us with expanding markets for our goods and services. Without these markets we would not have been able to create the one million extra jobs that have come on stream in recent years.

    Our future prosperity is strengthened and assured if we are at the centre of Europe.

    Ireland is the economic success story of Europe and this Treaty will allow us to do even better. A “Yes” vote in the referendum will secure Ireland’s place at the centre of Europe, and is a vote for jobs, the economy and Ireland’s future.

    #62246
    Biggins
    Member

    …So basically, its good for the business people. The bigger your business the more say and influence you will have!

    …but lets forget about individual human Irish rights right? For example:

    Art 3 TEU sets out the “objectives” of the EU. These are laudable in themselves, although they are now to include price stability. But Art 96 TFEU stipulates that an open internal market and free competition is the economic policy within which all other objectives are framed. As to public services, the commission, using ECJ (European Court Of Justice) case law, recently declared: “In practice … the vast majority of services can be considered as ‘economic activities’ ” – meaning privatisation is possible, including charges and problems for people on low incomes.

    The ECJ has ruled that limits can be put on fundamental rights in order to uphold other freedoms in the treaties, as long as those limits are “proportional”, to balance competing rights. In the recent Vaxholm and Viking cases, the ECJ favoured the right to establish a profitable crossborder business over the right to protect workers’ interests. This shows the conditional way rights in the charter would be interpreted by the ECJ.

    The treaty charter alone is defective on five unquestionable CLEAR grounds:

    1. Many of its provisions only apply “in accordance with EU and national laws and practices”. This means it is only to be used in relation to EU law, and discriminatory national laws could remain. On top of this the European Court of Justice can place limits on how it is applied in order to meet “objectives of general interest recognised by the union”… in which an open market and free competition are central.

    2. It is weak and flawed in its own provisions, being a step back from parts of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights (particularly Art 23 protecting a person’s right to work) and, for example, the French constitution. It dilutes the fundamental right to work, and in so doing, undermines the case for social security payments when the state fails to provide employment.

    3. It is possible that the ECJ through its rulings on the charter may undermine the ECHR. The ECHR makes its rulings based on the European Convention on Human Rights – which deals with human rights alone – unlike the EU treaties on which the ECJ makes rulings.

    4. It provides no redress or counterbalance to the primacy of competition and the market in the EU treaties. It could even be used against a government that wanted to take a major enterprise back into public ownership – for example Eircom.

    5. It includes no means for ensuring its own implementation or for monitoring the progress of implementation nor procedures to punish breaches of its provisions.

    …Naa, I’ll stick with my paper and still voting "NO"

    #62281
    MaryK
    Member

    Biggins…don’t be naive. 😯 Of course it favours business and trade. How do you think we put food on our tables?!? More jobs from successful business ventures.

    Politicians want Ireland to be competitive, which is why we see bi-partisan support on the YES vote. They know, as do business leaders, that with Europe more open we have more opportunity. Idealistically, socialism is popular, but it is not going to help Ireland in the long term. Love it or hate it capitalism is here to stay. Now that may seem like swearing to you, but I am sure you enjoy the fruits as much as anyone else.

    Ireland as a country is slumping at the minute. We could talk about the amount of unemployment that is on the horizon, or the fact that multi-nationals are leaving like rats on a sinking ship, because the 12% corp. tax isn’t as great as it sounds, when placed next to wage demands. The looming international oil and food crisis. The ‘virtual real estate market’ and sub-prime money lending.

    What is going to get us back on track? What is going to sustain us? The truth is we need Europe more than ever to keep us in the materialistic world we have become accustomed to.

    The UK was always suspicious of Europe. That was because they were rich and could make demands. We were not as rich and welcomed it with open arms; and reaped the benefits as a result. Now we are similar to the UK in personal wealth, are we just going to fold our arms in an anglicized posture and truculently glare at the East? How convenient it is to forget our own recent economic history!

    The fact is Ireland does not have a lot of other opportunities. The BB penetration is laughable and any future plans are centred in Dublin and its environs. The Speeds are ridiculous. S. Korea has nearly 60%FTTH with +50mb/ps capability. We still feel pleased when we get a 3mb line at home!! Is this the area where we will be world leaders? Maybe we will farm our way into the world’s respect. Maybe manufacturing will be our saviour and we will take all the jobs back from people who work in China and elsewhere.

    The ‘doomandgloommongers’ have some good points, but they are belligerent pedants that will hold us back and send us back in time. If that did happen, people who initially wanted the no vote will be blaming something, or someone else. Then it won’t matter which newspaper you read, it will all be the same news!

    YES for Europe 😀

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